Great Antitrust Enforcers: Interview with partner Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Book: Great Antitrust Enforcers - Lessons from Regulators

Interview with partner Mariana Tavares de Araujo, conducted by Bill Kovacic (The George Washington University Law School)

Bill Kovacic

Welcome to our continuing series of interviews with great antitrust enforcers.

I’m Bill Kovacic with the George Washington University Law School faculty and the faculty of the Law School of King’s College London.

With us today is Mariana Tavares. Mariana, welcome.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Thank you, Bill.

Bill Kovacic

Our aim in doing these interviews is to take the experience of those who have served with great distinction in the competition policy/enforcement community and to take many of the lessons that they derived from their experience and make that available to a new official who’s coming into the field not simply in Mariana’s home country, Brazil, but globally, so that someone who’s coming into the field can have a step up.

A good deal of what it takes to be an effective official here does not show up in a book. Even if you have books about management and the experience of agencies, a great deal of what makes you effective is what you learn on the job. You absorb from colleagues. It’s a lot of knowhow that isn’t always readily captured in a single space.

We have the great privilege of having Mariana with us to spend a while talking about her experience, nine years in the Brazilian government, several of those years at the top of the Brazilian agency responsible for enforcement in the Brazilian competition system. Mariana played a crucial role in helping formulate a program earlier in this decade to accomplish a major transformation of the Brazilian system, which took an already effective and renowned system and put it on still a better platform for the future, with the consequence of making Brazil simply one of the best competition systems in the world, a leader in the formulation and policy in Latin America, and a tremendous exemplar of how a good system can be developed.

Mariana, thank you for being with us.

She is currently a partner with the Levy & Salomão law firm in Brazil.

We’re just delighted to have you with us today. Thank you.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Thank you, Bill. It’s really an honor to join this project. A great project. I really enjoy being here.

Bill Kovacic

I’d like to start by taking you back to your path into the field of competition law. Can you tell us a bit about how you got there? I’d like to ask also along those lines of thinking about the kinds of experiences that were very good preparation for you when you come into the competition area and your thoughts about the sorts of background that a leader might best have in entering the field.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Well, great. Where did I start? My career path, I think, was in some ways quite unusual.

I started off right after graduation at a biotech firm. The head of the firm was a medical doctor with a PhD in genetics. He introduced DNA paternity testing in Brazil and he was hired as an expert in all paternity lawsuits and some horrific criminal cases. I was his liaison with the courts, also a garden variety of legal issues involved in the work of the lab. I did that for a number of years. Fun work, but been there, done that.

So I decided to do my LLM. I came to Georgetown, took Steve Salop’s classes, and decided I wanted to be an antitrust lawyer. I was here in D.C., and I was introduced to the head of one of the former competition agencies, which you also know very well, Claudio Considera and to Paulo Correa, his deputy at the time, both at the Secretariat for Economic Monitoring (SEAE) at the Ministry of Finance.

Bill Kovacic

There were three institutions at the time that had a major role in the Brazilian system.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Yes, and SEAE was very active then. They were primarily in charge of merger review, but Paulo and Claudio were also excited about cartel work. They were very enthusiastic about what was going on in Brazil, also with respect to antitrust. We had price controls until the middle of the 1990s. That was mid-2001, so things were picking up.

They invited me when I finished my LLM to come and work for the agency. I didn’t think twice about it. It was a great way to start practicing antitrust. So I went.

But to tell you the truth, when I accepted I didn’t realize that it was going to be a nine-year project. I thought it was a one-year thing, maybe a couple-of-year thing. But then I became involved in different fronts, having growing responsibilities. .

Actually, as you said, there are three agencies. I worked for SEAE for a year. Then Daniel Goldberg and Barbara Rosenberg — well, the government changed and they went to work for the Secretariat of Economic Law at the Ministry of Justice, the other agency.

Bill Kovacic

The SDE.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

The SDE. They invited me to come and work with them. I was Barbara’s deputy. They were really focused on cartel enforcement, and that was the SDE’s project. I was Barbara’s deputy for a few years. Then Barbara left and I became head of the Competition Department. Then Daniel left at the end of 2006 and I became the head of the SDE. So that’s where I started.

Bill Kovacic

For all of you this is an exciting time. It’s a remarkable team, in part, because you are all so young coming into these jobs.

When you became head of SDE how old were you?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

I was thirty-six.

Bill Kovacic

I think Barbara and Daniel were both in their twenties.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Exactly.

Everyone was late twenties, early thirties at that time.

Bill Kovacic

But this his very high energy, every exciting to be —

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

It was great. I really enjoyed working at SEAE, but when I joined the SDE it was as if we were on a mission. Cartel enforcement had to happen. Paulo and Claudio were doing what they could, but at that point at the SDE — and I think that was made the difference and what made the team successful — they realized that it would not be possible to achieve deterrence doing it alone, that we needed partners, and getting closer to the criminal authorities was key. And it was and it became effective because of that.

But I think, leaving the substance apart, what made it special was, as you said, the enthusiasm about it and the fact that there was a plan in place. We knew it was going to happen. It wasn’t always easy, but we knew we were trying to accomplish something important there.

Bill Kovacic

So before you become the head, you have the opportunity to observe the work of Barbara and of Danny. Does that give you a better sense of how you want to leave the agency, after watching their work at close hand, having a senior responsibility yourself?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

I think that was certainly key. Effective leaders have different backgrounds. I don’t think there is one way of doing it right. But for me it was very important having held different positions, having been at another agency and then going through different positions before I became the head of the agency. I could watch them making decisions. And helping build the strategy was very helpful for me.

Also, studying more and learning more about antitrust served me. But knowing how the government worked, learning how the government worked, and knowing the people, knowing policy, politics, and the challenges of how to get a project in place, whom to call, how to get a budget — that made my life much easier once I became the head of the agency.

Bill Kovacic

What are some of the distinctive features of working in a public agency? Previously you’d been with a private institution. Now you’re back with a private institution. What are the features of the government culture that a leader has to be attentive to, that you have to understand in order to work well in that environment?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Without a strong team in place you’ll be able to do little, and for that you have to be able to recruit and retain good people. At law firms pay is flexible, so that can be a tool. That flexibility does not exist in public service.

But you had the opportunity to show, if you believe in it of course, that you’re doing the good for society. If you are able to pass that on to your team, I think they’ll likely stay around. That’s one aspect of it.

The other aspect of it is that a career in government can become very boring if you’re always doing the same thing, so it can just become —

Bill Kovacic

It’s just routine, yes.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

I think it’s important that the team feels that they’re going somewhere, that they’re progressing professionally, that they’re learning what they are doing, and of course that they are doing something important. How the leader organizes the agency can make a huge difference. So strategic planning, prioritizing, and making sure that everyone is aware of that makes an important difference, too.

Bill Kovacic

I think this is key advice for a leader to keep in mind.

Can you tell us some more about how you worked with your team, with the employees in the agency? How did you go about communicating the sense of purpose and making clear what your aims are in order that you could inspire them to pursue the goals, but also to maintain that additional motivation to do well? How did you inspire or motivate your team to do their best?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

I was able to inspire and motivate because I was very inspired and motivated about what I was doing. I thought that was important. I think if you don’t believe what you’re doing is important, you will likely not be able to excite and communicate that to others. I was convinced that what I was doing was important and I was able to communicate that well because of that.

But we weren’t that big of a team, so we talked a lot. We had weekly meetings and we discussed every project. And I listened, I paid attention to what they had to say, because some of the case handlers — and many of them are still with the Conselho Administrativo de Defesa Econômica (CADE) [Administrative Council for Economic Defense] today — were already around, they were studying hard, and they had a lot to contribute.

I think I inspired because I was inspired, but I also listened and I made sure that they participated in putting together that project.

On a personal level — and I think this applies to a law firm as well — I feel that everyone works very hard, these projects can be very stressful, things go wrong. As the head of the agency, you plan to do a dawn raid and you go to court and you don’t get a warrant. What do you do? You have to go back and plan again. Then who do you call? You call the prosecutors. Are you going to try it again administratively? So things will go wrong and you’ll go through stress.

But if you’re around people who like what they’re doing, who you like, who like you, and where there is a trust-based environment, things will get lighter. So I think this personal aspect of it, of people liking to be together and trusting each other, makes a huge difference.

Bill Kovacic

So you invested a significant part of your time in the consultation with your people.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Oh, absolutely. I think these weekly meetings were very important and very productive. Sometimes they were forty-minute meetings and they sometimes were two-hour meetings. We discussed every project in our pipeline.

It was also an opportunity for people to tell others about their results and to exchange views and experiences. So I thought it was useful as a learning experience for the younger members of the team, and it kept us together.

Bill Kovacic

And as you mentioned, I think a major contribution that you made with your colleagues — you didn’t do this alone, but you were such a key participant in this — is that it’s striking that so many of your more junior people have stayed in the system and continued to contribute to it. That adds a vital element of memory and experience to make everybody more effective.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Yes, absolutely.

This was something that, together with Barbara and Daniel — Arthur Badin was then President of CADE — this was something that at that time was a priority. Then Ana Paula Martinez came in and it became also a priority for us.

We knew that without a government career, even if it were just a government career in antitrust, making sure that people stayed within CADE, that if we were going to leave, then things could go to where they were. So people had to stay. Heads of agencies come and go, but if you have a strong career where people are experienced and held different positions, you are on a good path to becoming a strong enforcer.

We paid a lot of attention to that. So there was training, there was recruiting of government officials from the government career, making sure there was budget, first, to be able to attract the case handlers. It’s interesting — and this was very challenging — that in the budget of the SDE there was a specific budget for conferences, for dawn raids, for paper, but it didn’t cover personnel. This came from the Ministry of Planning. So “Let’s not spend, let’s save money in, let’s say, international trips and bring in more people” — you couldn’t do that.

The way around it was to make sure that whenever the government recruited for the government careers that part of these officials were assigned to the agency.

Bill Kovacic

Were you able to do some recruitment directly from universities because at this time you’re seeing the development of a strong academic infrastructure related to competition law? Did you have the ability to go into the universities, to graduate programs, and say, “Join us”?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

We did that as well. It was a two-way process. One side was we got the government to allocate some of the officials who went into a government career and came and worked with us. Those who came and worked with us were trained. We engaged one of the Fundação Getúlio Vargas to provide training to those new case handlers.

The way the government works, you have these officials who are part of the government career and others that you hire. But there are a limited number of these. These limited number of officials we brought, exactly as you suggest, were people from academia. Because they were excited about what the project was, they were willing to come to Brasilia for not as much as they would earn if they were working at an economic consultancy or at a law firm. But they were there because they wanted to be part of the project.

Bill Kovacic

And it seems as though, as an outsider, you’ve had a lot of success in creating what we could call a “buzz” about being in the competition field, in the public enforcement mechanism, that part of your identity was an exciting place to work, a place you can make a difference. Am I right about that?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

That’s exactly how it felt. I’m very proud of that. I think part of it was because we enjoyed working with each other so much, too. Of course we thought the project was important. We were a great team together, all of us and the people who came and joined us. So there was this buzz about the project and because we were excited being there together.

Bill Kovacic

You’ve given us lots of good insights into how you work inside the house with your people, building a team, creating a sense of mission, defining priorities. Part of your role as the head of an institution, when you ascend to the top leadership position, is you become the face of the institution for the outside, for the bar, for the media, for nongovernmental organizations, for international organizations. You are the force and the face of the institution outside. What was the adjustment like standing in the spotlight, on the stage now, where in a sense everything you do is observed and watched by all these communities? Was that much of a change?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Interesting. I think it wasn’t so much for me because I was there at the agency, I’d been at the agency for some years before that happened. So it was a natural process. I already knew the people. I had already participated in International Competition Network (ICN) projects, in Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) projects. I had participated in International Bar Association (IBA) and American Bar Association (ABA) conferences and projects. So I knew my counterpart at other agencies, and foreign lawyers too.

So when I was in the spotlight it didn’t feel awkward. Because I knew all these people, I had several people who I considered friends of the agency to rely on. For me it was very lucky because I think it was an easy transition.

Bill Kovacic

Did you have a way in dealing with outsiders to get at least informal feedback on how you were doing?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Oh, I did that a lot. If I were to give a tip to a successor, listen to friends of the agency. They will tell you if there is something that needs change. They will tell you if something that seems great from the inside perspective of the agency actually can backfire for one or another reason. Friends of the agency you have inside the agency of course as well as outside the agency in Brazil and outside the country. That was very, very helpful.

Bill Kovacic

I’m imagining that inside the house, too, with your team you had a way to turn to people and say, “I want you to tell me what you think, even if you disagree with me. I have to make a decision at some point. That’s my job, my responsibility.” I gather that you tried to create a culture internally in which people, as you were saying before, told you what they thought.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Absolutely.

I think that’s something that you teach by example. If people know that you’re frank with them and they’re complimenting them when their work is great but you’re saying, “Look, there’s room for improvement here,” or “Let’s go back and if you need help, let me help you through with that,” but you’re also someone relaxed, fun to be around, they will behave the same with you. And if you ask, “What do you think?” they’ll tell you, “Umm, don’t go that way.”

Bill Kovacic

There’s room for improvement.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Yes, exactly.

If you are open to criticism and if you’re open with the people from your team and what you think about them, and they feel you’re their colleague not a dictator, then I think they’ll come and tell you if you’re wrong. That can be extremely useful. That can save you a lot of trouble.

Bill Kovacic

So both from the inside and the outside you’re listening, you’re attempting to get a full range of views, again realizing that you are the person who ultimately has to make choices.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Yes. I think listening and telling people what you think is a critical part of reaching the right decision. You’re not going to ask for anyone’s advice; you know who to ask and about what to ask.

But you have to be willing to listen and to do something about what you hear, because it’s not just pretending you’re listening; you have to actually have been listening to improve your decision-making process.

Bill Kovacic

In speaking to the bar and speaking to news organizations, what aspects of the communication proved to be important? What do you have to tell them? What do you have to explain in formulating your plan for laying out your program? How did you go about doing that?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Part of what we were doing while we were in government involved change at some level, and change in an area that wasn’t entirely known.

So one key aspect of what we did was refer all these people who you mentioned, all the stakeholders and the media, to international best practices and tell them:

“Look, we’re not making this up. We may be being creative on how to approach this because Brazil has a unique system, so if we’re going to do cartel enforcement, we need to cooperate with the prosecutors, but cartel enforcement is not no news.”

“We want to introduce a new law and we need premerger review. This is not something we are coming up with. Look at the ICN Recommended Practices about that.”

So referring the stakeholders, including the media, to international best practices was an aspect of it.

And being willing to sit down and explain. I went to every conference that I was invited to and I was willing to answer questions. I sat down with the media several times — all the time actually.

And we spent a good part of our resources on outreach initiatives to make sure that everyone understood what we were doing.

Bill Kovacic

And then I gather that drawing upon international organizations and the work they were doing was helpful to you in building your program and carrying suggested changes forward.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

We wouldn’t have been able to do it without the ICN, the OECD, the more mature agencies; and with people like you and like Scott Hammond and John Fingleton, who were wiling to come down and meet with the prosecutors, meet with our Congress officials, and refer all of them to the materials that were prepared by the international organizations. I think that it wouldn’t have happened without that.

Bill Kovacic

One of the most important things that you did — which I think again is part of the culture of the Brazilian system and an important practice that other jurisdictions should take into account — is that you were engaged in a continuing process of improvement, of reform. You got major upgrades to the system that you’ve been referring to before, including one that again you pointed to, a major restructuring of the framework itself, a redesign of the enforcement mechanism, the addition of a premerger notification-and-review process, criminalization of certain serious offenses.

What in part is striking is that you got three distinct organizations to collaborate in a measure that involved some transfers of authority. My experience is that government agencies when confronted with the possibility of giving anything up fight more ferociously with each other than they do with the private sector enforcing the law. Yet, the group of you joined arms, formed common cause, and formulated a program that took a successful system and made it still better.

How did that come about? Where did you get the capacity, the willingness, the commitment, for all of you to come up with the reform package?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

An important element of it is trust, I think. When the discussion about changing the law started, I was still at the Ministry of Finance, SEAE, where the draft bill started to be prepared. The first discussions about the draft bill started at the Ministry of Finance where Claudio and Paulo and Kélvia Albuquerque were there.

Bill Kovacic

Yes.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Then I moved to the Ministry of Justice at the SDE. We became close. The two agencies were committed to that process.

Then Arthur Badin, who was Chief of Staff and who took the lead in the great part of the discussion within the SDE, then became President of CADE. Elizabeth Farina, who was President before Badin, was also very committed to that process.

So I think the fact that we all perceived that as being critical, that without that Brazil would not become a lead enforcer; and because we were friends.

Bill Kovacic

And personal relationships matter.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Yes, absolutely. We worked together on different projects. We were exchanging views on what was important. We became friends, and we’re friends today.

Bill Kovacic

Seeking improvements, where the aim of your work is to improve, to build institutions that will be effective and not just build monuments to oneself becomes — I would say part of the character of the Brazilian competition system is the result of this. That’s a striking accomplishment.

But the role that the development of the personal relationships, the fact that you had worked in two institutions, that you have the movement that you mentioned from one to another to another, meant that there was, I guess, a level of common understanding.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Yes, exactly, and I think that made it easier to have difficult conversations. But it also helped in a way where we shared the burden. It was a very long process, it took a decade to get it done, and it felt like Sisyphus — that you rolled the rock up the hill and then down it comes and then you pass it on to someone else, then the rock goes up again and when it comes down you pass it on to someone else, but you pass it on to people who believe that the same goal should be accomplished and whom you trust.

Bill Kovacic

Is there something that happened that finally made it possible, an event or a series of events, to push the rock up over the top? This was a long growth that you referred to, a decade-long commitment. Did something happen that enabled you to cover that last distance to the summit and push the rock over?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

I think the draft at some point incorporated views from as many stakeholders as possible. That was certainly critical.

But I think it was the commitment of Fernando Furlan and Vinicius Carvalho that at the very last mile made it happen. I think that was very important. The way they approached the right people meant that they were willing to advocate for that. I think they deserve a lot of credit for that.

Bill Kovacic

As an outsider, this kind of impression can be completely wrong, and you should tell me if I am. But I have the sense that part of what you built is a continuing bond between those who work still inside the public enforcement arena, those who are the alumni of that system on the outside and working in different capacities, that you have a connection, a shared sense of purpose — not necessarily agreement on everything to be done, with the wisdom of every matter chosen – but you have in Brazil a shared sense of purpose on both sides that contributes to the effectiveness of the system. Am I right about that?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

I share your view about that. I think when you see how the Instituto Brasileiro de Estudos de Concorrência, Consumo e Comércio Internacional (IBRAC) [Brazilian Institute of Studies on Competition, Consumer Affairs and International Trade] has grown over the years.

Bill Kovacic

IBRAC is a professional society?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

We describe it as our ABA Section of Antitrust Law.

Bill Kovacic

The ABA Antitrust Section, IBRAC.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

I think it’s the equivalent of the ABA Antitrust Section.

And how it has grown over the years and how much it contributes to the work of the Agency, I think it’s because of that that people from the Agency are now at IBRAC and the people that worked with us when we were there, and the new people rely a lot on and trust in what IBRAC has to say.

Bill Kovacic

Maybe a minute or so on challenges that lie ahead. That is, this has been over twenty years of a real success story, sustained improvement step by step, continuing ascent. How do you keep it going on that path? What’s necessary to make that work?

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

At this point in Brazil CADE’s challenges are not that different from other antitrust agencies around the world. I think you have to make sure that the good team stays there, and for that I think you need a good leader, and that good leader will be able to have a strategic plan in place, will be able to prioritize, will be able to continue to excite the team, and keep things going.

The structure is already there. I think from now on it is more of the same, which does not mean that it’s less important — actually, quite to the contrary, because it’s not new anymore. But there is still a lot of work to be done.

Bill Kovacic

The last question I’d like to finish with is imagine that you’re talking to a successor, someone who’s going to come into a senior leadership position, if not the head of CADE itself, and they ask you: “What do you know now that I ought to know on my first day? Suggestions for me about coming in, getting off to a good start, and doing a good job? You’re my personal trainer. Tell me what I ought to think about in doing that.”

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Well, three quick hits. I think we’ve gone through this during this conversation. You listen to friends of the agency, inside and outside the agency, and also at international organizations and other foreign authorities. They will help you know when it’s time to change and rethink, readjust your strategy.

Second, one that’s related to it, keep your eye on international best and recommended practices. You’re not going to get it wrong if you pay attention to that. You can be creative here and there, but pay attention to that. It will help you with your credibility, too.

Third — something that I heard once from John Fingleton — you’re not going to be good at everything.

Bill Kovacic

John Fingleton was the head of the Office of Fair Trading, one of the two U.K. authorities, and a leading figure in antitrust.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

And a good friend.

You’re not going to be good at everything, so you need to have people around you who will excel at things that you don’t excel at. For example, I think I am good at communicating ideas as if they were my own, I’m good with implementation. I’m not so creative myself, so I hired and I worked with people who are very creative and who share with me angles that I wouldn’t be paying attention to if it weren’t for them. So it’s build a team with people who will complement aspects that you don’t have.

Bill Kovacic

I think it points to an important consideration that may not be obvious. Part of coming into this role requires a level of self-assessment, to look at your own skills, to look at your own personality, and to develop a sense of what you’re good at but what you don’t do so well.

Or you don’t do at all. Maybe you’re a terrific economist but don’t know so much of the law; maybe you’re a brilliant lawyer but economics hasn’t been your formal training; maybe you have great instincts about technical analysis but you aren’t by nature the political scientist who understands everything about the country; maybe you’ve been a star in domestic matters but you don’t know that much about things international.

It seems as though a key starting point is to know yourself.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Oh yes, that’s the key starting point.

The second step I would say is be willing to do homework.

Bill Kovacic

Yes, to grow.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Yes. You have to be continuously committed to grow.

Third — and we’ve been through that — ask questions.

Bill Kovacic

Ask questions. And in doing your work make the best possible use of your strengths and build and rely on a team that can complement what you do.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

I think that’s the recipe.

Bill Kovacic

That’s a good way for leaders to think about their work — and I think this is such a key lesson to close on — which is to know yourself —

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

You have to know yourself.

Bill Kovacic

— in an honest way. You don’t have to be a super human being or a perfect human being.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Well, I’m certainly not.

Bill Kovacic

Not too many of us have gotten to that point. I’m sure maybe someday there’ll be one walking around, but I haven’t met them yet. But to have that understanding of yourself — honest assessment; a true appreciation of what you do well and a knowledge of where you have to learn more, as you said, and the dedication to do that; and to surround yourself with a team that can support you by complementing what you do. In many ways that’s where you begin that process.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

I think these are all the elements. If there is a recipe — it’s hard to have a recipe for that — I think it involves all those ingredients.

Bill Kovacic

I’m very grateful to you for sharing your experience, Mariana, and to do so from the perspective of someone who — with others; of course it was a collective effort —

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Oh yes, it was a collective effort.

Bill Kovacic

— did so much to build a system that is so important in Brazil as a pillar of good public administration, as an example throughout the hemisphere of how one does this well, and globally, it’s no accident that when people think and ask the question “Can it be done? Is it possible with realism, ambition, effort, knowledge, to build something that works?” — it’s easy to point to Brazil as a success story.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

You’re very generous, Bill. But I can tell you that I’m very proud of having been part of this great team. It’s been a great ride.

Bill Kovacic

It is not a misplaced pride. It is a pride well placed.

Thank you, Mariana.

Mariana Tavares de Araujo

Thank you, Bill.